davis was right. >> you can think about the impact on his marriage and relationship. >> i think that was the last question. thank you. >> if everyone could please take their seats. welcome back.

i am the chairperson of the board of the abraham lincoln institute. the curator of the abraham lincoln papers at the library of congress. a president of the united states traveled by train from washington dc to gettysburg to visit the battlefield and dedicate hallowed ground. speaking before an audience that included veterans, the president addressed the challenges the nation then faced and the need to preserve a government of the people. if everyone could take their seats. >> so we can keep on schedule while everyone is winding their way back to their seats welcome back. i am the chairperson of the

board of the abraham lincoln institute and the curator of the abraham lincoln papers of the library of congress. a president of the united states traveled by train from washington dc to gettysburg pennsylvania to visit the battlefield and dedicate hollow ground. speaking before an audience that included veterans of the great battle the president addressed the challenges the nation had faced and the need to preserve a government of the people. the year was 1938 1863. they veterans were 75 years older and the president was franklin roosevelt not abraham lincoln. the new york herald tribune reprinted fdr's speech under the headline roosevelts gettysburg address and the chicago tribune proclaimed roosevelt don's lincoln armor at gettysburg provoking abraham lincoln as a model for new deal americans to follow. it seldom helps to wonder how a statesman of one generation what surmount the crisis of another. a statesman deals with concrete

difficulties with things that must be done from day to day and not often can he frame conscious patterns for the far off future. fdr acknowledged that in his remarks. the fullness of the stature of lincoln's nature and the fundamental conflict which events force upon his presidency invites us to turn to him for help. it is such of the civil war past in a new deal era context that nina silber examines in her new book this were eight over fighting the civil war in new deal america. she introduces a new cast of character to the historiography of civil war memory and explores how americans reinterpreted the civil war to meet their own needs during the great depression and world war ii. since completing her training as a historic historian at berkeley go bears sorry i had to do that, she has returned

repeatedly to the fertile field of civil war studies to uncover new perspectives for which to engage civil war history. she has documented the gendered dimensions of the war and doctors of the union and gender and the sexual conflict. in the romance of reunion northerners in the south 1865- 1900 she traces the ships of northern sentiment towards the south during the period of reconciliation and the casualties of that reunion. in addition to republication's professor nina silber has a further understanding of the civil war era through her distinguished teaching career at boston university and her contributions to public history projects. i can testify to the professor's ability to inspire and inform and having long benefited from the insights of contained in her academic scholarship i recently read an interview in which professor

silber was asked if she collected historical artifacts and for the first time learned of the existence of civil war nurse arby barbee. did you know barbee was a nurse at gettysburg? although given barbie's physical attributes perky personality and fondness for accessories i am guessing barbie did not serve on the staff and she is still waiting for the barbie dream ambulance . if you understood all of those shows clearly this war ain't over for you either. here to share with us how new new deal era america reshaped the legacy of abraham lincoln please welcome nina silber. w pe have appropriated the war. have a reinterpreted it over time area often they do tha >> y thank you. thank you michelle.

i think barbie met lincoln in that book or at least there was a picture of them it wasn't actually a photograph but it was something. thank you for that kind introduction. i am very honored to be here in this setting with this esteemed group. i've never been on this stage before so i am taking it all in. i am deeply grateful to the abraham lincoln institute for the kind invitation to be here. michelle just gave you an introduction but i can tell you more about me i am a scholar who studies the history of the american civil war but i also study how we use and sometimes how we misuse the history of the civil war and so i am interested in how people have appropriated the war how they reinterpreted it over time and often they do that in a way so it speaks to their present-day concerns they kind of manipulate the history to speak to the present anybody who

hasn't been under a rock the past couple of years probably knows something about how the civil war continues to get reappropriated and reinterpreted in the present day. in every recent clash and encounter over confederate monuments civil war history continues to be retold with present-day concerns in mind. something similar happened in the 1930s. it wasn't so much with monuments because people weren't really building monuments in the 1930s. the 30s or a decade of crisis and upheaval that some thought had a lot of similarities to the 1860s. no historical figure came in for more reimagining or reinterpreting during the 1930s then abraham lincoln. be prepared this is not going to be me talking so much about lincoln in the 19th century but it is going to be me talking about how lincoln was imagined

in the 20th century. in fact during the depression decade lincoln was everywhere. movies were made about him including one by the legendary filmmaker dw griffith as well as a two better known lincoln movies from the end of the decade, you might remember there was young mr. lincoln which was the 1939 film with henry fonda playing lincoln. there was abe lincoln in illinois the one with raymond massey. in the 1935 film the littlest rebel lincoln meets with the charmingly petite sympathizer played by shirley temple. she met lincoln too. the two of them shared an apple and lincoln freeze shirley's father who is falsely accused as a confederate spy from prison. lincoln also starred in novels and in radio programs and in theater performances including two popular plays produced by

the wpa federal theater, i think there are more than the two, there were a lot of small regional productions and he was a very popular staple in theater. in one of these popular plays he was reincarnated as a kentucky college professor who helps to resolve a labor dispute. i'm going to say i've read a lot of lincoln screenplays and scripts and that is one of the stranger interpretations of lincoln i have come across. he was also frequently in the thick of 1930s politics often scrutinized and celebrated by new dealers, conservatives and civil rights activists. lincoln's power went beyond political symbolism because he also struck a deep emotional cord with americans in the sears. carl sandberg wrote a will know multivolume biography of the 16th president over the course of the 1920s and 1930s, and he

probably did more than anyone to give lincoln an emotional heft. the son of swedish immigrant parents who settled on the illinois prairie sandberg seemed particularly attached to the notion that working people and perhaps immigrants saw something in lincoln that made democracy viable and accessible. sandberg used the kind of documentary style that became popular in the 30s similar to the style that was employed by writers only sandberg applied this to lincoln, surrounding him in a collage of historical and details and allowing him to merge almost seamlessly with the thoughts and feelings of ordinary americans. that connection to ordinary folk very much suited the mentality of the 30s because it was a moment when people tended to blame elite bankers and elite politicians, they said those were the ones who were

responsible for the current economic crisis. they then tended to believe or wanted to believe that the folk wisdom of the plain people would help american democracy survive. sandberg's work was on the mind of literary critic alfred k when he remarked in 1939 americans had developed a passionate addiction to lincoln. in 1942 after having written two lincoln poems and completed three portraits the painter used even stronger language and he said, i am simply dead in love with that man. now here is the thing copy for the depression lincoln did not radiate that kind of attachment, that kind of passion. there were not these kind of declarations of heartfelt love

for abraham lincoln. in some ways i think he didn't even radiate the same amount of power that he would come to have in the 1930s. it wasn't that people weren't talking about lincoln but he didn't seem to possess strength in the same way he would come to have in the 30s. as had been true for decades lincoln stood as a figure of moderation and reconciliation described by former president william howard taft as reflecting the brotherly love between north and south. in 1930 with economic collapse looming president hoover hailed lincoln not is a great emancipator but a great moderator. his words said hoover poured their blessings over strength on each subsequent generation. in that same year dw griffith used lincoln as the subject for his first talking film and griffith like a lot of artists in the 1930s was another one

that said he was influenced by carl sandberg and wanted to incorporate sandberg's work and what he was doing, he even tried to hire sandberg to be a consultant on his film but sandberg was too expensive and wanted more want money so i think he found someone else. nonetheless griffith lincoln has nothing of the sandberg lincoln about it. he is actually a pretty bland and monotonous figure in dw griffith's film. he is your standard issue let's get everybody together kind of person and as one reviewer explained griffith or lincoln made quote a notable attempt to be fair to the two halves of our nation. like a lot of the abraham lincoln's pretrade in this earlier period or set up before carl sandberg had been writing lincoln and griffiths film was also a rather crude frontiersman. in one scene the president soon

after arriving in washington flops down on the white house floor to take a nap. it was a very bland neutral and yes apparently fatigued lincoln who was portrayed in this film and i think that image of lincoln reflected the reluctance on the part of many white americans to invest the 16th president with substantial power precisely because lincoln in these years had to be safe, he had to be moderate. he had to be someone who could heal the wounds of division. in this way lincoln was being called on to play a part he had been playing since at least the end of the 19th century when the story of the civil war was often told as a tale of fraternal division that gave way to brotherly reunification. that was of course an idea most vividly imagined in the idea of white soldiers from across

opposing sides shaking hands across a bloodied chasm or across a stone wall at gettysburg's angle. that idea of reconciliation seemed to be more or less equal sections coming together not really about a nation or about lincoln imposing power on its subject, especially those who came from a rebellious section of the country. had lincoln been imagined as he really was, that is as a figure of federal authority who forced seceded states into military and political submission, he would have complicated that feel-good reconciliation narrative. to keep things balanced lincoln in the sears took a backseat to the emotional bonding of north and south. this i think is the kind of image of lincoln you get in griffiths earlier motion

picture 1915's birth of a nation. there are a lot of things that are odd about that film but there are also a lot of things odd about the way lincoln is portrayed in the film. i guess i would describe the lincoln birth of a nation as oddly androgynous. the is a weepy, he wears a shawl, he serves as one historian says as both father and mother figure to the american people. get in the end it is not lincoln who helps to give birth to the nation in griffiths film but the consolidated power of white men north and south especially the ku klux klan. this image of a relatively weak lincoln presidency may also be one reason why the story of lincoln's youth, his frontier upbringing, his awkward but heartfelt romantic encounters, his mediocre performances as

the new salem postal clerk, these stories became so captivating in the early 20th century because here was territory that could be engaging human material without having to venture into the messy business of lincoln as a figure of power who enacted measures emancipation for example that did not meet with universal acclaim. in the 30s my argument is lincoln looks different. he is not a plan to figure of moderation but he seems to foreshadow a more powerful nationstate that was extending the blessings of freedom to a wider group of americans. with his image being consciously reworked by writers and politicians lincoln became a forerunner for the groundbreaking work of franklin roosevelt's new deal. as early as 1930 force 1930 for

sandberg helped when he compared fdr's national recovery program and its assistance for industrial workers to lincoln's role in emancipation. both presidents sandberg insisted used their executive position to proclaim a new status for an oppressed people. taking a cue fdr also made lincoln his model for initiating social reform through expanded executive power. lincoln roosevelt claimed did not simply heal the rift but transcended sectionalism and brought new meaning to the concepts of our constitutional fathers and to ensure a government for its broad purpose the promotion of life liberty and happiness of all of the people. fdr in other words filed lincoln as a 19th century version of himself. no longer just a healer and reconciler lincoln now became

aligned with the centralizing and reforming efforts of new deal liberalism. as sandberg also suggested the new deal lincoln was also more of a great emancipator then a great moderator. it is true academics had always in some ways called attention to this aspect of lincoln's presidency but the work of freeing the slaves came even more to the forefront during the 1930s and the new deal. writers and artists and politicians imagined lincoln not unlike the way fdr imagined himself, as someone that channeled a new political energy in some way to make people's lives better. lincoln they said strengthened the hand of the federal government in order to attend to people's distress, a distress once marked i 19th century slavery but which could just as easily be marked by a 20th century economic crisis.

ordinary people often use this language in letters they wrote to roosevelt. abraham lincoln freed the channel slaves wrote to fdr and now mr. president you are about to free the child and wage slaves. this was language used frequently. people wrote a lot of letters to fdr and eleanor roosevelt and the administration. they often made these comparisons and used the language of slaves. we live like slaves now we work like slaves and they would draw out this idea that someone like roosevelt was needed to free the slaves. it wasn't quite so simple to talk about both presidents freeing the slaves since one president lincoln had directed his actions toward enslaved black men and women. roosevelt and his supporters

however were more reluctant about being associated with a racially defined agenda. as a democratic president of the early 20th century who needed the support of powerful white southerners roosevelt preferred keeping race issues on the back burner and showed little interest in upsetting the racial status quo in the jim crow south. feeling the political pressure roosevelts refused to lend his support to the federal antilynching law being urged by some members of congress. he also preferred to think about lincoln in eight race neutral way as someone that practiced a broad-based humanitarianism that helped all people. lincoln fdr insisted in 1938 was an emancipator not of slaves alone but of those of heavy heart everywhere. i am pretty sure this is not

how people in the 1860s would have interpreted the emancipation proclamation. indeed to the extent fdr and other new dealers talked about slavery they worked hard to redefine slavery as a condition that affected white people as much as black. sometimes whites seemed to suffer more from slavery than african-americans. as they explained it the slavery of the 1930s was mainly about the economic devastation and constraints that largely affected wage workers, the majority of whom were white. despite the fact that all of our people are free and have the right to work and live where they please said one politician, there are many who contend our live in virtual economic slavery. the assumptions here that all people can work and live where they please, something that was not available to african- americans suggested they were not really thinking about african-americans in this definition of virtual economic

slavery. according to representative frank dorsey lincoln's hatred of precious human beings becoming mere would have seamlessly extended into his distaste for the new slavery that placed men in economic. this quality dorsey argued made lincoln a new dealer of the late 1850s and early 1860s. so i think in the 1930s people seemed more comfortable seeing lincoln free white people and not black. and roosevelts phrase he freed those with heavy heart everywhere. in american popular culture heavy hearts seemed to rest mainly in the souls of white men. in a popular 1936 play written by future casablanca screenwriter a reincarnated lincoln comes to kentucky to

help white coal miners fight their own brand of slavery. striking miners and hold a sign that reads free the whites, an objective that very much appeals to lincoln. when lincoln appeals in the shirley temple film his task has nothing to do with freeing black slaves, instead he is there to grant shirley temple's request for freedom from two imprisoned white men, one her father and the other a kind union officer. if you know the premise of john ford's young mr. lincoln you might recall henry fonda's lincoln again has virtually no contact with like characters. his real work involves helping two white brothers who have been falsely accused of murder. in the most dramatic moment of the film the two brothers face the wrath of an angry lynch mob and then lincoln turns back the

mob and after that mounts a successful defense of the two brothers so he again liberates white men from confinement. yet in a very halting and hesitant sort of way some new dealers began to acknowledge the possibility that race too played a part in keeping people down in the 1930s and 1860s. lincoln's attention to racial emancipation they said did merit some attention and consideration. when the african-american singer marian anderson was banned from performing in the daughters of the american revolution concert hall here in washington many figures in the fdr administration including eleanor roosevelt helped to arrange a new open air concert in front of the lincoln memorial. in refuting the narrow racial prejudice of the dar they also allotted lincoln's role as

interior secretary explained in striking the chains of slavery from marion ancestors. i think the timing of this concert is important. it is april 1939 and it is a moment of growing awareness, threats and atrocities and by this time roosevelt and his associates also understood violence was increasingly directed in the service of abhorrent racial agenda. after comparing jewish singers being banned from a stage and anderson being shunned from the dar hall the assistant interior secretary oscar chapman pointed out the crucial difference between hitler's germany and roosevelts america. in washington chapman observed we have a shrine for abraham lincoln. when this more explicit acknowledgment of lincoln's role as emancipator including

his work in freeing those of oppressed race lincoln was poised to assume a particularly prominent role as the 1940s began and a new war against fascism on the horizon. he figured lincoln portrait a musical piece celebrating the american spirit and the aftermath of pearl harbor. he assumed greater prominence in the fdr speeches which wasn't surprising because roosevelt hired the lincoln dramatist robert sherwood as a speechwriter. looking back on the 1940s from the vantage point of the 1960s the novelist recalled it was the civil war not the revolution that was used most often in world war ii propaganda and that it was the image of lincoln not that of washington or jefferson that

flashed ritualistically on the silver screen. the powerful associations that throughout the 30s i connected lincoln to fighting slavery helped turn him into the kind of symbol that remembered. true slavery had often been loosely defined but it did suggest lincoln had come to embody a certain type of moral energy that could galvanize americans in a new global conflict. i should say at that moment americans needed that kind of motivation. as late as 1940 41 there were many who remained deeply cynical about the devastation that had been brought by world war i, deeply cynical about engaging in any further foreign entanglements. so in this context timely reminders about lincoln and his

commitment to emancipation helped people recall a moment when a true moral purpose guided americans war objectives. i will just say i am borrowing from because i feel like i must pay my due to another scholar, there is a literary scholar who develops some of this point and i am kind of borrowing from the literary scholar who talks about the way lincoln is used in this lead up to world war ii. what he suggests is in recalling lincoln's moral purpose to free the slaves americans might find a model of inspiration for fighting hitler. writers and artists repeatedly and explicitly referred to lincoln and his fight against slavery as a metaphor for understanding the fight against hitler and fascism. the office of war information produced a poster that proclaimed, this world cannot exist half slave and half free. the republican newspaper

william white agreed our great earth had become a neighborhood that cannot live half slave and half free. not only were lincoln's words used by lincoln himself was portrayed as a figure with a history of fighting slavery that could underscore the moral urgency americans needed in the new global conflict. robert sherwood who wrote the play abe lincoln in illinois held up lincoln as a way to urge americans to get off the sidelines when certain principles were at stake. and lincoln's commitment to ending slavery sherwood recognized the 16th president as a supreme non-isolationist in his essential faith. this made him an ideal figure for convincing americans despite their skepticism about foreign intervention they should commit themselves a new to this foreign entanglement.

significantly this language presented african-american activists and artists with new opportunities. the more lincoln and language of slavery was used in wartime propaganda the more it gave black americans a chance to remind their fellow americans that slavery was not just a metaphor for describing different types of oppression, the slavery factory, the slavery of coal miners but it was also a historic experience that continued to impact black life in the united states. black journalists saw in this new environment a chance to urge the roosevelt administration to deliver a consistent antislavery message which is a message that recognized oppression based on race both abroad and at home. as one writer put it, if roosevelt cared about fighting slavery he would stand by the reconstruction amendments and make surewere not returned to

slavery. failing to do so would be no different then enacting laws similar to hitler's declarations. as always hollywood did its part to visualize romanticize and distort this political environment. lincoln appeared frequently on screen in roles that accentuated his commitment to moral principles and in subtle ways the movies in the late 1930s and 40s and seemed to to acknowledge some way or another americans were undertaking a fight against slavery. i would like to conclude my talk by revisiting an old and familiar film, perhaps one of the most iconic films in hollywood with this perspective in mind. it is not usually what we think about as a civil war movie, the film i have in mind is casablanca. casablanca appeared at the end

of 1942 and it was directed by the hungarian. arriving in the united states in 1926 he embarked on a steady stream of moviemaking directing warner bros. classics like the charge of the light brigade, the adventures of robin hood and he also made two extremely unmemorable civil war films, the santa fe trail and virginia city. santa fe trail a poorly named movie if there ever was one since it had nothing to do with santa fe or a trail, it did show a historic jeb stuart played by errol flynn and george custer played by ronald reagan joining forces in pursuit of a fanatical john brown, played by raymond massey who traded in his lincoln outfit. like santa fe trail virginia city also celebrates the coming together of white soldiers

across sectional lines in a common cause. in this case it was union and confederate soldiers who united in the west late in the war in order to fight gold bandits. the details should not be explored too deeply. casablanca is also in its own way a film about reconciliation although not about unifying and allies . it is however about bringing together the indifferent and skeptical played by humphrey bogart oslo a unity that is achieved when rick discards his cynicism and recognizes the need to take a stand againstoppression. before this happens there is a suggestion of the civil war's relevance to current events. rick reunited with elsa at last and reminds her about the last time they saw each other in pairs. i remember every detail he

says, the germans wore gray, you wore blue. okay the color scheme is important i think, it tells us who was fighting for freedom and who is not but it doesn't directly say the confederates were not the cause of freedom it is more subtle than that. the central theme in casablanca was not a simple divide between freedom and slavery but this evolution from indifference to commitments. in this case it is the process by which rick dedicates himself to the anti-nazi cause. in some ways his journey is meant to reflect a larger american journey at this moment. how it became necessary to break with the isolation is a isolationism and the need to fight this new war. one critical step in that journey involves giving the new war a strong moral overlay to

make clear the new fight in europe was about principles not about material gain. as i suggested no figure better symbolized deep moral conviction in wartime then abraham lincoln. not to worry i won't try to convince you lincoln shows up in casablanca. i know he doesn't, but his spirit is there. nothing illustrates this quite so clearly as the moment when ricks saloon owning competitor asks if ricks cafi america can and the black piano player sam are for sale. how does rick respond? in the language of abraham lincoln, i don't buy or sell human beings. this line perhaps more than any other reveals the ethical underpinning that signals ricks

transformation. his willingness now to take a moral stand and i think it is no accident he uses the same antislavery language being used by the office of war information and by the lincoln playwright sherwood. in fact it is very likely the author of humphrey bogart antislavery pronouncement was howard a casablanca screenwriter and author of that lincoln kentucky college professor play from the lincoln theater project. even though lincoln himself does not as robert warren say flash ritualistically across the screen casablanca embodies the lincoln like a moral urgency that was being used to get americans behind this new effort. this then this lincoln was once again his spirit once again being reimagined and reinterpreted and in some ways

this may be a lincoln that inspired an even stronger and more passionate addiction then lincoln of the 30s. this was a lincoln who would have an impressive career in world war ii and even after in the cold war that followed. this was a lincoln that not only fought slavery at home but who could inspire a fight against slavery however that slavery might be defined on a global scale. thank you. >> let's get this started. love your reference with the imagery because imagery in messages are everything. you mentioned ethel payne and as america is dealing with its own sense of identity what it

is who it is and where it is going in that time period of where you're looking at where lincoln is you are also erecting these monuments these confederate monuments we are dealing with right now. there is always this dichotomy and this tug-of-war in the social consciousness. i am just wondering where this wave has gone and where it was at the time where it seems kind of generating there in the late 1900s late 1800s to early 1900s looking now at the international influence and impact where they have to define themselves even more. it seems to me coming to grips with one place in your own domestic identity then you're dealing with what is happening overseas when you want to be insular but how can you? there is so much going on..

>> [ indiscernible - low volume ] >> okay there is not a lot of monuments being built in the 1930s. a lot of the monuments were earlier so 1910 and somewhat in the 1920s. in the 1930s there is a competing narrative to all of the stuff i described about lincoln no farther than gone with the wind. there is another let's celebrate the south and it's lost cause and also a strong theme in popular culture. in the 30s it is a moment when you can see those two ways of thinking about the civil war that is april lincoln point of view and pro-confederate point of view and were clearly it is in contention with one another. there are clear lines being drawn and definite differences in how people are talking about the civil war. that is a very interesting thing going on in the 1930s and

1940s. the international situation i think is true because trying to understand franklin roosevelt to understand how the united states fit into this new world dynamic and trying to actually establish american prestige in the fight against -ism it almost necessitated this idea that you had to address somehow the problem of slavery, the problem of racial oppression within the united states, certainly african-americans were making that point very clear and prominent. i think one way then that roosevelt and other people tried to address that idea is by making lincoln into such an important symbol by suggesting, yes there is a history of racial oppression but then there is lincoln as oscar chapman so we have a shrine for abraham lincoln then there is the possibility of combating

that racial oppression in american history. >> thank you for being here. in your talk i heard the words father healer shrine and over time i have thought about lincoln being assassinated on good friday. my question is does the attention to lincoln become nearly religious and what would lincoln think about that? >> [ indiscernible - low volume ] thank you for reminding me. oddly in the 30s i don't feel it has a strong religious overlay, well there is a way in which the movie young mr. lincoln ends on a supernatural

so i think it is possible lincoln has always had those associations and some of them were being explored in the 1930s but i don't find the particular images that emerge in the 30s to be strongly religious. there is almost i would almost say overly secularized is the lincoln you get in the 1930s and 40s because he has put so much in concert with current events. that might be different from the lincoln that emerges in the 1880s and 1890s. because lincoln is so often discussed in the same breath as current news items or international global affairs it has a way of secularizing him. i don't feel the religious part comes out quite as strongly. >> thank you very much. >> hello professor i loved

hearing you and i got to interview him in 1977 as an undergraduate. this is the basis of my question. you mentored aaron copeland, why don't you mention cayson's close friend who was a slavish follower of joseph stalin until the soviet pact . he is very influential in lincoln studies because of that dreadful chapter he wrote on lincoln and the american public tradition. warren is fighting for himself did you know in 1946 all of but one of faulkner's novels had gone out of print because the literary community disapproved? >> i am not sure where to put him i guess. >> he is there, he is there definitely. stalin did it want philip randolph what marching on washington and the protest the

protest didn't occur because fdr created the fair employment practices act commission. but he is there. >> i will think about that. thank you. >> i am curious winded lincoln -- all over the country winded lincoln groups all over the country winded lincoln museums start to go and when did lincoln's name begin to be used in many different places? >> my impression is you can find clubs with lincoln names can't town that is all happening immediately after the

assassination. my sense is that monuments and statues are a little later in the 1880s and 1890s. the lincoln memorial is 1922 so there is i guess i should say my remarks are not meant to say he is being ignored prior to the 1930s that he is definitely being recognized, honored and celebrated. i do think there is a kind of switch in the 1930s in terms of let's talk about lincoln moderating and healing and more a figure of power, a figure who actually kind of represents the most consolidated power of the american government. i don't think you had that image earlier of lincoln but i think you do have that image in the 1930s. >> thank you.

>> there is a more subtle reference to lincoln in casablanca, if you recall rick ran guns and fought in the spanish war and of course that was the lincoln brigades. >> [ indiscernible - low volume ] >> microphone. you are not at the microphone. i simply mention that because that's been mentioned three times. >> that he ran guns. >> i thought the lincoln brigade because you mentioned you would wonder but people would have known that reference at the time. >> writes. i will go back and look at that. thank you. >> two questions. did any of the southern segregationist democratic politicians say, wait a minute

you are using lincoln as a symbol? after the war this will cause us a lot of trouble because of these black soldiers that will come home and say, we thought you stood for lincoln, what about us now? secondly the southern voters were solid for fdr, he was a god in georgia and alabama especially georgia. do you think he overestimated that the south would turn against him if he took even the smallest steps to improve civil rights? >> just to answer the second part first but i will have to remember yes, i think roosevelt was very conscious of not alienating the southern wing of the democratic party and i think that did inform his decision about the anti-

lynching bill when it was working its way through congress. i think they were southern democrats there was a lot of tension in that relationship so in 1938 roosevelt goes on this campaign to try to encourage more liberal white politicians in the south to challenge the conservatives and feel like margaret mitchell for example come down like the wrath of god on fdr and they say this is just reconstruction all over again when the government tried to interfere with what we were doing. it was a very tense relationship and it wasn't so much like anything fdr did was great, i think there was that problem. i think the question about the use of lincoln's complicated. i think it was not so easy to simply dismiss lincoln in the 1930s, you couldn't just say lincoln was a tyrant although there were people that still did that. i think if anything what

southern democrats tried to do was just not talk about lincoln. for example one thing i found interesting was douglas freeman who was the biographer of robert e lee spends a lot of time leading up to world war ii and during world war ii trying to turn robert e lee into a relevant figure for americans in the second world war. he talks about his military strategy and other ideas and plans he has. he kind of tries to elevate robert e lee but even douglas freeman at one point writes this essay and sort of acknowledges lee is an important symbol but so is lincoln. the power of lincoln was even someone like douglas freeman had to acknowledge yes at this moment the historical figure who seems most relevant for what we are doing is abraham lincoln. >> i would just point out fdr being overly cautious i think if you look at his vote results

32 through 44 it was the same in those states they adored fdr. >> you are right about that. absolutely. >> maybe i don't have one more. yes i do have one more. >> this was a wonderful talk. i have to be honest i always thought fdr embraced jefferson more than lincoln. did he connect the two at any point? i was looking fiercely for speeches but i always felt jefferson was more on the forefront than lincoln but maybe not. >> jefferson was important and i think fdr spoke at the dedication of the jefferson memorial in the 1930s. 1943 thank you. he did speak at the jefferson memorial so it is not as if jefferson was being overlooked

and he does take the opportunities to infuse jefferson in the things he talks about. i would say that lincoln's relevance to current events kind of elevated him at least for roosevelt and for many other people not just in the new deal administration but when i think about popular culture jefferson is not there. when you think about for example is it in mr. smith goes to washington that has that kind of big scene? he has a big scene at the lincoln memorial so there is a way in which the lincoln image kind of rose above jefferson for that moment.

thank you. >> , >> we are about to get started so if you would not mind taking your seats, please. as you will see in your program